This blog gives you the latest topical news plus some informal comments on them from ShareSoc’s directors and other contributors. These are the personal comments of the authors and not necessarily the considered views of ShareSoc. The writers may hold shares in the companies mentioned. You can add your own comments on the blog posts, but note that ShareSoc reserves the right to remove or edit comments where they are inappropriate or defamatory.
Last week the Office of Tax Simplification (OTS) announced a review of Capital Gains Tax. They have invited evidence and there is a simple on-line survey you can complete on the subject (see link below). As someone who occasionally pays capital gains tax, I give you my views on the subject below.
It is of course a horribly complex tax with several different rates and numerous exemptions. I need to employ an accountant to work out my self-assessment tax returns when I don’t consider my affairs particularly complex – I am mainly invested in listed shares, although I do have a few EIS and VCT investments. My accountants use specialist software to do the calculations, not generally available to retail investors and even that seems to be prone to complex misunderstandings.
This also puts a great burden on HMRC in terms of administration when it brings in less than 1% of tax revenues. Plus there is an enormous amount of effort put in by investors and their advisors to avoid paying the tax (there are lots of ways to do so). Indeed one could argue that the current Capital Gains tax regime was invented by accountants as a “make work” project due to the complexity of the rules.
Should the tax be scrapped altogether as some people have suggested? I don’t think so for the following reason: It is very easy to convert income into capital gains, or vice versa. I recall this was done many years ago by the Beatles when instead of receiving royalties they sold the revenue stream from music royalties as an asset. But even private investors can do this – for example by investing in investment trusts that roll up the income and don’t pay it out in dividends. Another example is that of Venture Capital Trusts which are often effectively converting capital gains into tax free dividends. Or of course investors can simply avoid trading in individual shares and invest in trusts or funds which are not taxed on their individual holdings and realisations thereof.
It is therefore irrational to have different rates for capital gains and income which is currently the arrangement. That’s clearly one simplification that could be made, although investors will be furious if they have to pay more tax as a result.
But one big problem is the lack of indexation of capital gains which was scrapped some years ago by Gordon Brown and replaced by allowances. This means that you pay tax not on the real change in the value of a share, but on that created simply by inflation when the shares are worth no more in reality. This may not seem a major issue in a period of low inflation, but with money being printed like it is going out of fashion by Governments, high inflation might well return. Even a low rate of inflation over many years can result in a very large tax bill, and even worse, you may not have the option to retain the holding. A takeover bid for a company can effectively force a sale. Indexation should be reinstated as it was not difficult to take it into account in your tax returns.
Capital Gains Tax also distorts investment decisions. For example, you might hold on to a shareholding longer than you otherwise would because you know a large tax bill will result. So your portfolio may end up containing a lot of companies with poor prospects and their market share prices might remain higher than they otherwise would be, i.e. the market in the shares is distorted.
It also causes sales of shares to take place when they might not be best timed, simply to use up capital gains tax allowances in the current tax year. Or even to anticipate changes to tax rates and allowances by decisions from new Chancellors or new Governments.
The existing arrangements encourage the use of investment trusts and funds rather than personal investors holding individual shares. This has had a negative impact on the stock market as investment decisions are now made by fund managers rather than real owners. It has also meant that much of the profits generated by public companies end up in the hands of the fund manager rather than the end investor who rake off 1%, 2% or more per annum which can often be a very high proportion of the real return generated by companies. It also has a negative influence on corporate governance as fund managers have little interest in controlling the pay of directors for example. In effect we have a lot of absentee owners.
These defects might be considered an argument for scrapping CGT altogether but that is unlikely. However, an alternative proposal would be to reform it so that a rollover of investments did not incur tax. In other words, if you reinvested the proceeds from a sale of shares or other assets into new assets within a period of time then no tax would be payable. If no net profit is actually realised, why should investors pay tax?
Do people even care about paying tax on their profits when they die? Capital gains tax liability currently disappears on death and that might need to be changed if rollover was permitted but there is also interaction with Inheritance Tax here which would also need to be reconsidered.
Property is taxed at different rates, although the property you live in is exempt. This has of course encouraged people to invest in a home as an asset for their retirement. This has powered the house price bonanza in recent years and encouraged people to occupy bigger houses than they need. Although encouraging home ownership is meritorious, it is not clear why gains from owning a home should be tax free. Reforming this could be a political hot potato although a “roll-over” provision and other exemptions could mitigate the adverse consequences.
Capital Gains Tax has always had a negative impact on business creators although there are allowances that reduce their liability when a business is sold. Much tax planning activity is prompted by such outcomes which typically undermines the tax take. Another related issue is that high capital gains tax rates encourage wealthy entrepreneurs to move to countries where capital gains taxes are lower or even zero. We lose their expertise and also they spend their money in other countries as a result.
In summary Capital Gains Tax is ineffective, generates relatively little in tax from very few individuals and is a disincentive to entrepreneurial activity. It can result in tax being paid on purely inflated share prices and when no actual cash is realised as the profits are soon reinvested. It does of course discourage therefore new investment and distorts the stock market.
In my opinion, capital gains tax needs a complete overhaul. If you agree, or disagree, please add some comments to this article. I’ll ponder those before making a full submission to the OTS review.
OTS Capital Gains Tax Review: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/ots-capital-gains-tax-review-call-for-evidence-and-survey
You might also want to participate in this Equity Development webinar on taxation and the AIM market.
Roger Lawson (Twitter: https://twitter.com/RogerWLawson )
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Group description: | SIGnet Taunton is a new group with around 10 keen members at present, with a range of investment styles and experience. We welcome new members. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | In person meetings at a golf club near to the centre of Taunton. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | We meet on the first Monday of every month at a golf club near to the centre of Taunton, 11am until 3pm with a lunch break. |
Group description: | An online group for those who are new to investing, or have only been investing for a few years. Including topics such as: – What is a share or a bond, why and how to buy them. – Comparing funds, unit trusts, Investment trusts and exchange traded funds. – Portfolio management and diversification. – ISAs, pensions, SIPPS and how to save tax. – How terms such as PE ratio and dividend yield are used to value a share. – How to use technical analysis or charting. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Online using Zoom. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are usually held on the last Monday of the month at 7:00pm. |
Group description: | An online group for those who already have some experience in investing. Covering topics such as finding companies to invest in, financial statements and ratios, valuation / margin of safety, analysis of companies and investment trusts and exchange traded funds. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Online using Zoom. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are usually held on the last Wednesday of the month at 7:00pm. |
Group description: | The Equity Income Group welcomes investors of all levels of experience, from beginners to advanced. The focus of meetings is on dividend paying Investment Trusts, though there is also discussion around individual shares. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meetings are held online. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are held every 6 weeks on a weekday between 7 and 8:30pm. |
Group description: | The Group welcomes investors of all levels of experience, from beginners to advanced. The focus of meetings is on all types of income generating financial instruments, from stocks through Trusts and Funds and ETFs to retail bonds. Meetings involve presentations from members, who are also expected to lead discussions from time to time, as well as discussions on what has been bought and sold since the last meeting. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meetings are in-person in a venue in Central London. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are usually held on the last Thursday of every other month, starting with an informal lunch around 1pm followed by discussions until around 5pm. |
Group description: | A regular Signet Group looking to help members improve their investment techniques through group discussion of member’s experiences. We welcome investors with any level of experience. Group meetings generally start with:
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Meeting Type/Venue: | In person at a friendly pub close to Piccadilly Circus. We also have the option for members to join the meetings remotely if they are unable to attend in person. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are held in the evening from 6pm to 9:30pm with a 30 minute break for supper, at monthly intervals. |
Group description: | Our focus is on UK listed, high dividend yield individual stocks, although high yield investment trusts/REITS which are of interest to members will also be covered. This group is suitable for members with existing fundamental investing experience (at least 2 years), with a keen interest in discussing in some detail the underlying business, financial performance and future prospects of individual income stock ideas. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meetings are held online. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are held every 6 weeks from 4pm to 6pm on a Monday. |
Group description: | A welcoming group open to all types of investors. Typical meeting content is to have a deep dive presentation on a topic selected by the participants and a session on buy/ sell/ key lessons learnt last month. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | In person at a friendly pub close to Piccadilly Circus |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly during the evening on the first Wednesday of the month. |
Group description: | The Enfield Signet Investment group welcomes all types of investors. Currently we are a small group, with a few seasoned investors and others that are looking to learn more about investing more generally.
Meeting content is determined by the group in advance of meetings and the agenda will typically include discussions on stock ideas and other investment themes. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The meetings are in person at a pub in Enfield EN2. We start with a quick informal lunch followed by a discussion on investment themes, updates on prior investment recommendations and other items members have submitted for the agenda. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | We meet at 12:30pm on a week day during the first week of each month. Meetings are 2-3 hours depending on the number of items on the agenda. |
Group description: | This group is for investors rather than technical traders. Although we mostly invest on the basis of Fundamental Analysis, we believe that Technical Analysis can be used to help decide the timing of entering, adding, reducing and exiting investments.
Meetings include presentations by group members on specific topics, and on recent decisions made with the input of technical analysis. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Online via Zoom |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly on the first Monday of the month.
Meetings start at 7 pm, and end between 8.30 and 9 pm. |
Group description: | Our group is a broad church that contains investors of varying experience. Our members’ backgrounds are diverse and include corporate banking, engineering, teaching and the leisure industry. We generally pick a discussion topic for every meeting, e.g. housebuilders or the defence industry, and members are invited to research and discuss different aspects or companies within that industry. We also discuss stocks and investment trusts that we have bought, sold or are interested in and the reasons behind our decisions, and try to make sense of the ever changing investment environment. Discussions are robust and challenging but we are a friendly and approachable group who welcome investors of all levels – we just ask that you contribute, at whatever level you can. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Our meetings are held in a private room at a nice pub near to South Ealing tube station (Piccadilly Line), not far from Ealing Broadway (District, Central and Elizabeth Line). |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | We meet every 2 months, usually on a Wednesday morning at 11am. |
Group description: | All levels of experience welcome. A typical meeting agenda includes: – Macro Environment – Trades: Members review existing positions and identify securities with promising TA entry patterns or setups and with suitable risk/reward. Any security, long, short, futures, options may be considered. The convener takes actual positions in trades and maintains his own detailed ledger, accurately measuring performance of individual securities and cumulative activity. Members are notified by e-mail prior to the entries or exits that are decided upon. Following each meeting an updated copy of the ledger is circulated together with the next meeting agenda. Members may wish to maintain similar ledgers of their own but there is no obligation to do so. – Technical Analysis: Techniques and systems used in trades. Members can request discussion of particular aspects of TA. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Online via Zoom |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | The first Tuesday of every month from 7 to 9pm |
Group description: | The West Sussex SIGnet Group is open to all investors irrespective of experience. Those with limited investment experience will be encouraged to participate in online training courses operated by SIGnet. The group will be principally focussed on individual stocks or investment trusts covering the UK and US markets and ranging in size from small caps to mega caps.
Meetings will typically include a number of presentations on specific stock ideas and on investing styles and themes. Meetings will also review the performance of our “portfolio” of up to ten stocks chosen by the members in a share picking competition competing against other SIGnet groups across the UK. Additionally, members will be encouraged to identify a share from their portfolios and talk about it for 3 minutes (short ideas welcome). |
Meeting Type/Venue: | We plan to meet physically every month during the day at various venues across West Sussex. During the summer months we may hold a number of evening meetings to encourage attendance from those unable to make meetings during the day. Additionally, we will hold online meetings from time to time. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings will be held on the second Monday of every month. Physical meetings will typically be from 11:30 to 15:30. Evening meetings and online meetings from 19:30 to 21:30. |
Group description: | Open to all investors / people with an interest in investing. Typical meeting will involve members talking about recent purchases, successes, failures and possible future purchases. Also with occasional visiting speakers or members making presentations on a topic of interest. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | We aim to meet on the last Tuesday of each month in a private room at a pub in Playhatch. Start time 7pm with members encouraged to meet up around 6pm for a bite to eat / drink before hand, if their diaries allow. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | 7pm on the last Tuesday of the month. Meetings likely to last about two hours but with informal ‘overspill’ before / after. |
Group description: | This group was set up as a forum to discuss companies in detail, each company is introduced by a member and discussion may last one or two hours. Membership is by invitation only and is for experienced investors. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The group meets at a venue in Waterloo, London. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are on Tuesday mornings at two month intervals. |
Group description: | This group was set up as a forum to discuss companies in detail, each company is introduced by a member and discussion may last one or two hours. Membership is by invitation only. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The group meets at a venue in Waterloo, London. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meeting on Monday mornings at two month intervals. |
Group description: | Group of investors that meets on a bi-monthly basis to discuss all things happening in the world of investing, share each other’s knowledge and give the benefit of each other’s experience. Group primarily focuses on unit trusts, open ended investment companies and investment trusts. However, all investments are up for discussion and new members are always welcome and encouraged. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Remotely via Zoom on Saturdays on a bi-monthly basis, on dates collectively agreed by all group members. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Bi-monthly. |
Group description: | This group nominally covers the whole of Scotland – although we are also open to members from wider afield. The focus of the group will be on ‘Technical Trading’ rather than Investing. Importantly, we understand that many people do both longer term investing and shorter term ‘technical trading’. Of that mix of styles this group will focus on ‘technical trading’ – so you might expect us to have conversations such as:
Swing Trading, Stop Losses and Position Sizing, Chart Patterns – Cup and Handle, Breakouts, Springs, Flags etc, Support & Resistance, Indicators, Price Targets, Positive Expectancy, Trade Management, Trading Systems, Trade Ideas and Evaluation, Trade Planning, Leading and Lagging Sectors, Leading and Lagging Participants within Sectors, Trade Journals, and the ‘Tools of the Trade’. The majority of the group have both longer term investments and carry out shorter term trades, too. They would term themselves both ‘investors’ with a longer term outlook and ‘traders’ with a shorter term outlook. The group members have broad experience in the markets – including across all asset classes and vehicles (shares – companies, trusts, ETFs, funds; spread-bets, CFDs, Options, Crypto). However, most of the group are predominantly interested in equities within the context of a portfolio. Although some members are highly experienced traders that is not true of all and experience level should not be seen as an impediment to joining. So, if you don’t know who Richard Wyckoff was, or why Fibonacci is even more relevant today than in the 11th Century – don’t worry! Every day is a ‘school day’ for us all – Mr Market makes sure of that! |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The aim is to have a mix of formats to support the requirements of all group members: – Online meetings once per month. Nominally on the last Tuesday of the month in the afternoon. The group will utilise MS Teams. – Occasional Face to Face meetings during week days to suit those members who are retired. – Meetings of opportunity: taking advantage of local investment seminars and events to meet up within the context of investment & trading. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Our aim is to meet at least once a month virtually with physical meetings when the opportunity arises. We are fortunate in Edinburgh to have many quality venues for meetings, and occasional investor events that allow ad-hoc meet-ups around the shared interest of investing & trading. |
Group description: | The Worcestershire group was established in January 2024, and is open to all SIGnet members who have an interest in profiting from, and developing their stock market experience (other asset classes qualify too!). Novices and Fund Managers are made equally welcome.
Meetings consider topical investment issues, facilitate the exchange of ideas, and are intended to provide a forum for the enjoyable sharing of areas of expertise. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Face to face meetings are held monthly. Various venues in Worcestershire are used. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are held monthly, on weekdays, typically staring at 12 Noon, and finishing at 3pm. |
Group description: | Our group members have wide ranging investment experience and work backgrounds. Discussion topics include reviewing our recent stock or collective investment buying and selling activity, plus what we are considering buying or selling and the reasons for our decisions. We also have a wider discussion on where we think opportunities might arise in the next few months and what we think needs to be avoided. Members occasionally lead discussions on specific topics such as recent events attended, articles or books of interest and sources of investment ideas and information. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | During the pandemic our meetings were held on Zoom, but we have now resumed meeting in person at a location a few miles to the west of Colchester. Most meetings will now be in person, but it is possible that occasional meetings will be held on Zoom in special circumstances. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | We meet midweek every two months. Zoom meetings run for about two hours from 10.30am and in person meetings from 11am until about 3pm, including a break for lunch. |
Group description: | This group meets to look at issues that are of interest to the group, to look at individual companies with an investors eye and collectively raise the group’s knowledge of investable companies. There is also discussion on buys and sells made by members which calls upon and builds the collective skills and understanding of the group members. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The meetings are held in Piccadilly Circus in a pub private room. The group does not meet on zoom. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | The group meets on the second Wednesday in every month from 6.30pm to 9pm. |
Group description: | The National Group is open to all members of SIGnet. It is intended primarily for new SIGnet members, who may not yet have found another suitable group to join. We aim to welcome new members and discuss their investment interests and current investment topics. Investors with all levels of experience are welcome to join. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Online |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | The National Group meets monthly, on a weekday evening. Meetings are generally from 7-8:30pm. |
Group description: | This group was formed in September 2023 and meets in-person during the evening in a London pub. The group is open to all investors – a good proportion of the initial membership are experienced investors. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | In-person meetings. Pub. Dinner and drinks. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly on the third Tuesday of the month from 6-9pm. |
Group description: | We are a small group of committed, thoughtful, active, amateur investors who are mostly retired. Our core investment philosophy has always been to look for fundamental value in companies and our inspiration has been Warren Buffett. We are generally buy and hold investors, not frequent traders.
We will look at a wide range of investments, including for example, investment trusts, OEICs and ETFs as well as companies of any size. However we do not look at the more exotic areas of investment such as options, other financial instruments or hedge funds. Our discussions range widely over the myriad of factors that may influence investments and include macroeconomics, investment psychology and political trends and from time to time a member will present a book review relevant to investing. Typically the agenda will include an update on members’ investment activity since the last meeting and a presentation on an interesting potential investment by one or more members. We are all existing or former professionals and undoubtedly it is the combined experience which always makes the meetings both interesting and challenging. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | We have face to face meetings every two months at a venue close to Waterloo Station, London. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings run from 11am to 4.30pm, usually on a Tuesday and include a lunch. |
Group description: | Group focused on active investing, primarily in small / medium cap UK equities. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Regular Zoom meetings interspersed with occasional face to face meetings and social activities in the North West. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly on Saturdays at 10am. |
Group description: | Our group covers a wide spectrum of mainly stock market investing and trading from equities – which include shares, ETF’s Investment and Unit Trusts. We normally rotate the meeting chairperson (responsible for creating, with member’s help, suitable agendas) and a meeting presenter (members take it in turns to provide a 15 to 45 minute presentation on a subject of their choice). Various investing topics of interest are regularly discussed such as software, brokers, investing categories and markets and any related topics of interest. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meetings will be returning to in-person in a private room at a West London golf club, close to an underground station. In the meantime monthly video calls and an in-between meeting email group will continue. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | In-person meetings will be held on the second Wednesday of each month in the afternoons, following a golf club one course lunch. |
Group description: | The Options group has been meeting monthly for some 20+ years and new members who are either trading or interested in trading options are always welcome. Our members trade options predominately on both UK and USA shares, indices, currencies and commodities. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meetings take place via video call. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are monthly, on the 4th Wednesday of each month, normally from 12:30 to 2:30 and sometimes run over. |
Group description: | This group is nominally the Edinburgh group. However, the group actually draws membership from: Edinburgh, The Lothians, The Borders, Fife and Stirlingshire.
The majority of the group are what you could called ‘investors’ with a longer term outlook rather than ‘traders’, but several have broad experience in the markets. Most of the group are predominantly interested in equities within the context of a portfolio. Some members have interests across asset classes and are interested in portfolio construction and portfolio management. Although some members are highly experienced investors that is not true of all and experience level should not be seen as an impediment to joining. The group is open to new members. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The aim is to have a mix of formats to support the requirements of all group members:
– Online meetings once per month in the evenings to suit those members who are working |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Our aim is to meet at least once a month virtually with physical meetings as frequently or more often when the opportunity arises. We are fortunate in Edinburgh to have many quality venues for meetings, and occasional investor events that allow ad-hoc meet-ups around the shared interest of investing. |
Group description: | This group is open to all levels of investor and is particularly popular because it meets after working hours in central London. The meeting usually has a presentation or group discussion on aspects of investing and also runs a Buys & Sells session which gives everyone the chance to see what the other group members are buying or selling and why. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The venue is near Victoria Station in a pub where the group also enjoy a meal from a typical pub menu. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | This group meets in the evening in London. It is a face to face group that meets every third Tuesday in the month from 6.30pm to 9pm. |
Group description: | This group is for those interested in investing in the USA. It is open to all investors with a special interest in this area and all levels of experience are welcome. A typical meeting will have a discussion on a particular market issue or a presentation by a member or external speaker on a subject of interest to the group. All members are expected to play a part in presenting and to take an active role in making the group of value to all its members. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | As a specialist group with a wide geographic spread of members, our meetings are held on zoom. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are monthly and are held on the third Tuesday in the month from 11-12.30PM. |
Group description: | A group that welcomes investors with all levels of experience. We aim to provide a friendly north-eastern welcome to anyone that wishes to join, share their knowledge of investing and benefit from others’ knowledge and experience.
The group discusses a range of investment related topics. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Currently, we’re meeting in-person at a venue in Durham. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings occur monthly, on weekday evenings from 7pm-9pm. We may vary this, according to demand from group members. |
Group description: | We hold monthly in-person meetings with possible exceptions in August and December. Discussions are generally on the topic of investment strategy and potential companies of interest. Each member is expected to make an investment-related presentation approximately once a year. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | We meet in a private room at a pub around 7 miles SW of Oxford. We usually each order a dish from the pub menu that is served during the meeting. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are in-person, monthly on the 4th Tuesday of the month at 7pm. Typical meetings last 2 to 2.5 hours. |
Group description: | The group has been successfully operating for over 20 years and currently has members with diverse investment styles. However there is sufficient in common to ensure an interesting mix of ideas and experience which provides a great sounding board for investing as well as the opportunity to enhance our investment skills.
Some members lean towards a buy and hold approach whilst others trade more frequently, some use technical analysis methods, others use fundamentals or a combination. Discussions cover companies predominantly listed on the London Stock Exchange, including small AIM stocks, but investments in other countries are sometimes included. Investment trusts, exchange traded funds, bonds and some other financial instruments are included. Economic issues as they relate to investing are discussed for those who adopt a top down approach. Additionally, experience of different investing software and information sources provides good insights into what members find works well for them. If an investment related subject is of interest to the majority of the group then it is included, such as government budget announcements, pensions and inheritance tax etc. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Pre Covid we had face to face meetings once a month in a pub for a 3 hour session just a few miles to the west of Cambridge during an evening. Covid forced a change to video conferencing for meetings. These meetings remain monthly but are split into two shorter sessions, they normally take place on the first and second Thursday of each month. From 2023 at least two meetings during the year will be face to face.
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Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly, usually on the first and second Thursday of each month from 7pm. Any face to face meetings will also be on a Thursday at 7pm. |
Group description: | The group is open to more experienced and established investors who are active traders in shares, bonds and other investment vehicles. All present members are “mature” individuals but this would not preclude younger experienced investors.
At present there is an interest within the group in AIM shares with a view to inheritance tax planning but this is not in preclusion to other interests, REITs, Investment Trusts, Property etc. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meetings take place in person at private houses mainly in the north Leeds area. On occasion, especially in the summer, meetings may be held in members’ houses elsewhere in the general area.
At each meeting the members outline their recent activity and its relevance to their overall investment goals. Current fiscal events and economic conditions are discussed. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | The group meets each month on a working day determined at the end of the preceding meeting.
The meetings commence at 10:30 am and continue until around 1:00 to 1:30 pm. |
Group description: | A small group covering Dorset and South Hampshire.
We enjoy wide ranging discussions sharing views and knowledge on all investing types. We discuss relevant world events, sectors of interest, unit and investment trusts and individual equities. The group has been running for many years and members are all active investors. New members welcome. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Monthly meeting alternating between Zoom and Face to Face. The latter is in a local pub near the New Forest. All the meetings of recent years have taken place in the evening. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly during the evening, 7pm-9pm. |
Group description: | Meeting once a month, our group covers a variety of investment styles. We also have an active WhatsApp group and we welcome new members. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Physical meetings at a venue in Preston, Hitchin, SG4. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly on a Saturday at 10am (usually the last Saturday of the month). |
Group description: | Experienced investors who have been members many years and newer members wanting to learn about investing. Members discuss portfolio content and reasons why they have certain assets and investments. Buys and sells discussed along with interesting shares being considered along with current issues in the market of local or international influence. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Physical face to face meetings held in a central pub in Easton in Gordano. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Usually monthly to 6 weekly, mid week 12 noon to 2pm with lunch. |
Group description: | We are a relatively small group, but have a wide range of interests so always start every meeting with a discussion about world issues and the “investing environment” generally. We always discuss individual members market activity and any interesting opportunities on their watchlists. There is currently a lot of expertise in the small cap value area of the market within the group. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Our preference is for a physical meeting and a hotel in Meriden (Coventry) is the usual location, but we do have on-line meetings when weather and/or health issues make that the most suitable option. We rotate the chair and this is agreed at the previous meeting. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Our preference is to meet every 4 weeks on a Thursday evening, but the exact details are agreed at the previous meeting. |
Group description: | A small group whose primary interests are equity and Investment Trusts. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Currently meeting online using Skype. It is envisaged to have occasional meetings at member’s private houses in the future. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are held fortnightly on Tuesday mornings using Skype. |
Group description: | Most members are experienced investors. The main focus is on equity investments (single stocks or investment trusts). Other asset classes are discussed. Meetings involve presentations from members who are expected to lead discussions from time to time. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Meeting quarterly, physically in Central London. Other months (8 months per year) on Zoom. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meetings are generally held on the 3rd Wednesday of the month. The Quarterly physical meetings are from 11am-4pm (with approximately 1 hour break for lunch), the Zoom meetings (during the other 8 months) tend to last up to 2 hours (11am – 12:45pm). |
Group description: | A long-established group, however, we welcome new applications. Our meetings start at 10:15am with coffee and scones when members comment on their investment activities since the previous month. Generally, each member reports on a specific Company/IT/Fund e.t.c. This brings us to about 12:30pm when the meeting ends, and we have lunch. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | In-person at a Golf Club in Belfast. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | The group usually meets on the second Wednesday of the month, all year round, except in July and August when we have no meetings. Meetings commence at 10:15am and last 2-3 hours (including lunch). |
Group description: | We welcome anyone interested in investments regardless of their level of knowledge and experience. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Physical meeting in the Boardroom of a venue in RG9 (pre-meetings in the bar). |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Monthly – 3rd Wednesday of each month at 18:00 (except January, where the meeting will be held at lunch time). |
Group description: | We are a friendly social group welcoming investors with all levels of experience. Our membership varies between those with little or no knowledge of investing to those who live off their investing or their portfolios. We do not invest as a group so there is no money on the table, and we never discuss individual worth; we simply discuss and share investing ideas, we analyse the state of the market, individual stocks, funds, trusts, bonds etc., and we invite contributions from all group members. Guest speakers and company presentations are a regular feature, as is the SIGnet competition and also our own long-term Manchester Portfolio. We invite members to volunteer presentations from time to time on particular topics of their interest / expertise. At each meeting members are asked to share their latest or potential buying and selling activity. Our face-to-face meetings are punctuated by a lunch break, and for those with the time there is socialising and drinks afterwards. Most of all we learn from each other. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | The group meets through a combination of Zoom and face-to-face meetings at a central Manchester boardroom style venue. |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meets bi-monthly, 10am-3pm on Monday mornings, usually mid-month. |
Group description: | The Leicester Square Group welcomes investors with all levels of experience, but all members are expected to contribute to our discussions. We discuss/analyse individual stocks, market trends and investment topics. Guest speakers are sometimes invited to address the group. At each meeting all members are asked to inform the group of what stocks or collective investments they’ve been buying or selling, or are considering buying or selling. A friendly and supportive discussion is encouraged. The meeting is punctuated by a lunch break, providing an opportunity to socialise. After the meeting, members may stay on for drinks and to socialise further. |
Meeting Type/Venue: | Physical meetings at a central London venue |
Meeting Frequency/Timing: | Meets bi-monthly, 11am-4pm on a weekday |
Dear Roger,
Thank you; a lot to think about!
Can you show a simple tax and costs example of holding a share yourself or through an investment fund/trust for five years with an increasing dividend and then that holding being sold at twice cost please? I had not gathered that there is a tax advantage via funds/trusts. Of course they may well not sell the holding when you do?!
Yours, Mark Guthrie
The point is that funds don’t pay CGT on sales within the fund, so if you hold a fund and don’t sell there is no CGT however much it trades.
Mark: There are too many variables in such a calculation to give you a sensible answer. It depends on your personal tax position for example, how you hold the shares (tax free in ISAs or SIPPs), etc, etc. This web site gives you the basics though: https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax
I don’t agree that indexation was simple, if you had bought a holding in multiple purchases at different times and prices it was extremely hard to calculate the base cost or even understand how the rules worked. Replacing indexation with tapering was a big improvement IMO – unfortunately that fell foul of headlines about people paying less tax than cleaners, which completely missed the point but created political heat. The basic problem is that gains accrued over many years or even decades are all taxed in the year of sale (or not at all if there never is a sale). My proposal, at least for shares, would probably be to tax on unrealised gains as accrued, with a substantially higher allowance so only the wealthy would need to worry about it – as things stand you can potentially have something like 1 million in each of ISAs and SIPPs so only the wealthy are likely to pay CGT anyway.
Hi Roger
I agree with your criticism of the complexity of CGT and its consequences. I have just two comments on your own ideas.
You are dead right about the removal of indexation but doing the indexation calculations was also fraught with difficulty so I suggest a simpler “rough justice” (you might modify my precise suggestions). Capital gains tax on recent purchases should be taxed as part of one’s income – they amount to short term trading, not investing. To avoid game playing, around year end, define any gains made from the current or previous tax year’s purchases as income on which one should pay one’s marginal rate of income tax. For gains made from purchases in any of the four tax years preceding those two years, charge a flat rate of, say, 20%. For purchases in the the five years prior to that, say 15%. and for earlier purchases say 10%.
Your point about reinvestment of realised proceeds from sale is also very good but the time period allowed for that reinvestment should be pretty limited to demonstrate the genuine reinvestment intention clearly. Personally I would propose 7 days but you might think 14 days would allow better for practical barriers to reinvestment. You might also allow partial immediate reinvestment with tax being imposed on any proceeds not reinvested in that period. Finally, I don’t see a reason to allow this concession for traders so it should only be used if the original purchases were made earlier than the tax year preceding the previous tax year (as above).
Roger. I think indexation, or the lack of, is a big issue. Sometimes, e.g. with property, it is not possible to sell a part of your holdings each year to use up allowances. My preference would be for indexation to be reinstated so that you are only taxed on the real gain. An alternative could be to allow carry forward of any unused allowance each year to provide more proportionate cover for the sale of a large item, where the gains have accrued over many years but where you are taxed on the full amount of gain in one year. HMRC would probably want to drop the size of the allowance if people can carry forward, but that would probably still be fairer for most people and would have the benefit of removing the need to be selling shares near the end of the tax year just to use up the annual allowance.
Roger – quite agree that this area needs a complete root to branch over review, but cannot agree with your comments on the personal residence exemption. Let’s take an example – we’re currently in the process of moving home. If the government tax the gain on our home, that would mean that moving house would generate a tax liability which, to pay off, would cause us to move to a substantially poorer home. In turn, this would probably mean that we don’t move and hence the property market would grind to a halt putting all of those nice estate agents out of a job and reducing stamp duty.
A quick additional comment on Stephen’s point. Unfortunately taxing unrealised gains would probably be a nightmare and a prices move taxed gains could turn into losses. However, the point about the wealthy using ISA’s is spot on. The way to deal with this is to reduce the annual ISA limit from a ludicrous £20K (which ordinary people can save £20K in a year?) to, say, £5K and maybe impose a lifetime limit on ISA’s.
For quoted shares I don’t think it would particularly be a nightmare, you’d just have to value your portfolio once a year which you should be doing anyway. The exact price used wouldn’t normally be an issue because it would come out in the wash, using a lower price one year would just give you a lower base for the next year. Unquoted shares and property would be harder and might have to be dealt with separately. It’s obviously likely that in some years you’d have a loss but that could just be carried forward as we already have for realised losses. I think the main issue for such a system would be potentially making a lot more people file a tax return, hence the higher allowance.
Thanks for all the comments. My responses are:
– Taxing unrealised gains would be an absolute nightmare. You might get a tax demand when there was not cash to pay it, unless you actually realised the gains – which is not always easily possible (say for unlisted or illiquid listed shares). There would also be the problem of valuing unlisted shares and other property.
– As regards having a different tax rate for different lengths of holding periods, i.e. pay less tax the longer you held the shares, I have seen this suggested before. I think it has some merits (e.g. it might discourage “speculation” rather than “investment”, but it also tends to distort investment decisions and hence the market.
– As regards the complexity of indexing gains this is not a problem at all. All investors should keep a record of when they purchased shares and indexing them is easy. A simple spreadsheet can keep track of investments and what investor does not know how to use that software? I was trading shares when indexation was allowed and it never proved difficult for me or my accountants.
CGT is definitely hugely time-wasting for investors and HMRC – a great incentive towards using ISAs/SIPPs wherever possible!
CGT calculations are fiendishly complex and often many hours of calculation results in £0 CGT payable.
A great simplification of every tax is highly desirable, though current areas of unfairness would then be replaced by others. Far too much time and effort is spent trying to apportion tax either to take according to one’s means or to give according to one’s needs, but there will always be a shortfall and unfairness, so simplicity is preferable, being a constant virtue.
i have decided not to invest through my nominee account because of this problem as at one time i tought it would be a good idea to use money in my easy access account to increase my investments.
We have now submitted our joint the UK Shareholders Association/ShareSoc response
Cliff Weight
Director
ShareSoc